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iano
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Post by iano » Tue 22 Mar, 2011 11:19 pm

You saw it first sure but you can't exactly own the rights to a city skyline dude. If that's what I choose to photograph then so be it. I will refrain from sharing it in future if you're going to get all antsy about it. Deal?

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Post by trillion » Tue 22 Mar, 2011 11:31 pm

copying is still something you can learn from. i do think cam was having a little joke with you in the first one but then again i don't know, he might be getting all territorial like with the shot framing

it's weird but he has a point, he did get a magic shot some time ago and probably maybe i dunno, doesn't like seeing that tried to be one upped?

whatever, if you have that photographers respect thing going on, find a new place that you havent shot before and get a good angle and light on it and you probably wouldn't stir up the memories of shots done well

similarly im sure you hold the idea that your natural arch shots are pretty special and although it's probably further away and more hassle than an easy riverside shot, i don't see cam going and taking them :/

frig what a dilemma you photo snobs have going on!

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cGr
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Post by cGr » Tue 22 Mar, 2011 11:43 pm

No I dont own the rights to that shot, but neither do I expect someone to copy a photo of mine to the point of asking for the location, aperture, shutter speed, and then proudly proclaiming it as a result of their own wonderfully creative mind which they are so proud of. And there-in lies the rub, you're proud of copying someone else's idea.

Here's an idea I'm willing to share that you can exploit to your hearts content - go out and think for yourself. Look at things differently, work hard, shoot more often, and outside your comfort zone, and become the mark which other people measure themselves against. Just hope that when you do get that elusive shot, and when someone asks for some guidance (which you then offer in good faith), that they dont go out and blatantly copy your shot, or if they do, that they dont proclaim how wonderful that they are that they walk past this place everyday and eventually got the right light refracting off the moon at the perigee of its arc, and the result was this fantastic shot which is nothing but a poor imitation of what was once a brilliant photo.

Next time you want to start a monthly photography theme with the intent of promoting new photography, creative minds and new challenges, how about you dont start with a knock-off of someone else's photo.

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Post by trillion » Tue 22 Mar, 2011 11:51 pm

ah the plot thickens, such a cloak and dagger trade this

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cGr
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Post by cGr » Tue 22 Mar, 2011 11:56 pm

My rant took longer to bash out than yours teeej, but you're not far from the mark.

The thing which pisses me off no end about the photo in question (did you want to repost it iano? or shall I?) is that iano keeps on pulling out variations of the photo as a proud statement of his own photographic ability and creativity. Each time its happened (the original photo, and then subsequent times up until this instance) I wince at the idea that someone else is passing off their own work as my own, when I passed on that information as a gesture of good will, to help someone take better photos. Never did I think that the image would become such a source of (gay?) pride for iano.

By all means, go out and take better photos, but like I said before, I get massively fucking pissed off when one person passes off anothers' work as their own, and then proudly proclaim it as a source of their own grey matter and hard work.

For the record, I couldnt give two fucking hoots about taking photos of the natural arch, poorly exposed shots of a friggin tree, a different white balance take on the same shot you took yesterday on your walk to work, or thinking that because you've got a macro lens that everyone will ooohhh and aaaaahhhh over it because its sooooo close....

But never mind me, I gave up posting any noteworthy photos on here a long time ago purely through an easy way to avoid iano's sticky little penchant for nicking ideas. Which is a shame, I generally like sharing my ideas and the result of my own hard work, but not for the continual, repeated, self-pride, masturbatory benefit of someone else to go and blatantly copy.
Last edited by cGr on Wed 23 Mar, 2011 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by cGr » Tue 22 Mar, 2011 11:59 pm

trillion wrote:ah the plot thickens, such a cloak and dagger trade this
It's not cloak and dagger. Iano nicked my shot and proudly proclaims it as his own. Fine with me if he wants to post it up in his own home and walk past it beating his chest at his own ineptitude towards formulating his own thoughts and creative mind (which I know the result is much more fulfilling than looking at something which you copied and somehow finding a proud belief in), but continually passing it off as his own just grinds my gears.

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Post by trillion » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 12:12 am

sorry for my ignorance but i suppose the thought of cloak and dagger i have plays in my imagination like an animated 2d sequence of pick pockets and cadastral definitions

this is good stuff from you cam, loving the well crafted sarcasm

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Post by blv » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 6:43 am

In all honesty, I don't think that a person can 'own' that shot. Just because I saw Ian's arch photo and asked him where it was does that mean I can't go there myself and take a photo?

You may have found that spot on your own, and taken a nice shot there, but how you know you're the first? It could have been taken before, but does that mean you're copying someone else?

I understand why you're pissed cam, and if Ian would have said someone told me about this place and it turns out I'm always near it and didn't even realize, would you have still been pissed? Was it the way he went about it, and not the shot itself?
Last edited by blv on Wed 23 Mar, 2011 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
I just don't know if people like me. I know when they don't like me 'cause they'll say things like, 'Yeah, that's him, officer.'

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iano
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Post by iano » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 8:47 am

cGr: Grow up.

Thanks.

I cannot believe someone with as much integrity and respect on this forum as yourself got so damn pissed off over a shot that EVERYONE copies. Sorry dude, plenty of people come ladden with camera and tripod at Maritime point with a big fuck off wide angle, you ain't the first. It isn't your shot and never was. You just happened to take a really bloody good photo of it. Just like many before you. I don't for a second think it's come directly from my grey matter at all and nor did I ever intend to blatantly steal your creative ideas, god-if-one-exists forbid.

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Post by cGr » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:01 am

blv: This is the crux of why I'm pissed off.
cGr wrote:No I dont own the rights to that shot, but neither do I expect someone to copy a photo of mine to the point of asking for the location, aperture, shutter speed, and then proudly proclaiming it as a result of their own wonderfully creative mind which they are so proud of. And there-in lies the rub, you're proud of copying someone else's idea.
I'm probably not the first, but neither did I see someone else's photo, ask for the details, go to take the photo (or in iano's case, repeatedly go there to take multiple cracks at it as I've seen several variations on this photo up here by him), then post it up as a part of a thread designed to promote creativity and new photos, and then openly proclaim "Sorry about the size, but I am fairly proud of this one".

Which brings me back to my original rant that I knocked out last night, which in the light of day is still coherent and still very accurate, Iano is proud of blatantly copying someone else's photo. Seriously, think about that for a moment.

If I ever go to the natural arch I'll probably take exactly the same photo which iano has taken, that boods has taken, and that probably a million other people have also taken (I wouldnt be surprised if there was a well worn area where everyone gathers to take that one postcard shot). That wont stop me from thinking outside the box, finding another shot which people dont see, and then having some pride in the fact that I was able to get out of the mentality of following the sheep and finding someone above and beyond what the masses do.

To put it in more personal terms to you blv, imagine you had built up a short wheel base pajero into a rock hopper. You'd done everything to this car, wheels, diffs, custom tailshaft and suspension pickup points, winches, cage, seats, rear tray, custom paint job, the works, and you'd made it your own, individual car. One day you're out at an event and someone starts asking you about it and how they would like to start in the sport. Through a sense of pride in your own hard work, as well as a desire to do the right thing and help that person out, you tell them about your car, what you did to it, where you got bits from, etc, etc, etc. Imagine how you would feel if someone then rocks up to the next event (and the next event after that, and the one after that one again) with exactly the same car as yours...
Last edited by cGr on Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cGr » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:07 am

iano wrote:cGr: Grow up.

Thanks.

I cannot believe someone with as much integrity and respect on this forum as yourself got so damn pissed off over a shot that EVERYONE copies. Sorry dude, plenty of people come ladden with camera and tripod at Maritime point with a big fuck off wide angle, you ain't the first. It isn't your shot and never was. You just happened to take a really bloody good photo of it. Just like many before you.
Show me one other photo from that location that has been so frequently copied and pasted on this forum. Actually, lets start with a smaller, simpler task - show me ONE other shot taken at that same location, with the same framing, at the same time of day.

As I alude to above, if you want to take that photo, blow it up on to a big canvas to show in your home, and then beat your chest to everyone who comments about how good that photo is and you can live with the fact that you just copied someone else, go nuts. I hope you sleep well at night.
iano wrote:I don't for a second think it's come directly from my grey matter at all and nor did I ever intend to blatantly steal your creative ideas, god-if-one-exists forbid.
Your arguments would be so much more convincing if you didnt continually post up your repeated attempts at achieving the same photo. Sorry dude, but if you're ragging on my creative ideas and then go copy it, obviously I posess some skills which you are trying to mimic.

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Post by cGr » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:13 am

And while we're on the subject, why were you so quick to take down the other thread "March/April theme: Daily life" if you werent so concerned that my comment about blatantly copying my photo hadnt struck a chord with you?

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iano
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Post by iano » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:24 am

Um, did you hide all your toys away from the other kids in playgroup? Think about what you are saying. This is photography, and dude....you're an amateur enthusiast just like I am. Photography by definition is capturing ie copying something.

If you don't want people to borrow your idea either don't take the photo at all, don't share it, or if the shot made you money which it didn't, by all means pursue your rights.

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Post by iano » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:30 am

Oh and the only thing I see similar to your original shot is the scene itself. Different lens and body, the iso, shutter speed, focal length and aperture I calculated myself. Ditto for post processing.

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Post by cGr » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:37 am

Game on dude...
iano wrote:Um, did you hide all your toys away from the other kids in playgroup? Think about what you are saying. This is photography, and dude....you're an amateur enthusiast just like I am. Photography by definition is capturing ie copying something.
I shared my toys, but I'd be pissed if they were then permanently borrowed, or if the same courtesy in sharing toys back to me wasnt given. Even as a parent I will be teaching my children to stand up for their own beliefs if they feel hard done by, just as my parents taught me, just as I am doing now.
iano wrote:If you don't want people to borrow your idea either don't take the photo at all, don't share it, or if the shot made you money which it didn't, by all means pursue your rights.
And for a long time I havent. When was the last time I posted a photo up on here for no other reason to say 'here, I like this photo, I hope you guys do too'? And fuck-off with the photographer bullshit speak when it comes to pursuing my rights, you're not fooling anyone.
iano wrote:Oh and the only thing I see similar to your original shot is the scene itself. Different lens and body, the iso, shutter speed, focal length and aperture I calculated myself. Ditto for post processing.
Seriously dude? That's your counter argument and what gets you to sleep at night?

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Post by iano » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:45 am

This has gone far enough. If you feel hard done by then I apologise but short of you enforcing a personal exclusion zone within a 100m radius of Maritime fucking Point I am going to continue to go there, and take that same shot another 300 times if that's what I feel like doing. It's a beautiful location and my sincere thanks to you for showing it to me as before your shot I never knew about it.

But I'll keep my carbon copies to myself in future....sheesh.

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Post by blv » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:53 am

cGr wrote:To put it in more personal terms to you blv, imagine you had built up a short wheel base pajero into a rock hopper. You'd done everything to this car, wheels, diffs, custom tailshaft and suspension pickup points, winches, cage, seats, rear tray, custom paint job, the works, and you'd made it your own, individual car. One day you're out at an event and someone starts asking you about it and how they would like to start in the sport. Through a sense of pride in your own hard work, as well as a desire to do the right thing and help that person out, you tell them about your car, what you did to it, where you got bits from, etc, etc, etc. Imagine how you would feel if someone then rocks up to the next event (and the next event after that, and the one after that one again) with exactly the same car as yours...
To put simply, and very honestly, I would actually be flattered. This would mean that 'I' have built something, put in the hard yards for something, and was very successful at something to the point of someone doing the exact same thing to be competitve in the compitition. It would come down to the skill of the driver (valid in your circumstance too) as to whether they can be successful or not. I have no doubt that they should be proud of building the car, after all, all I gave them was the idea, the basis for it. They went out and actually built it themselves. If they paid me to build the car to the same specs as mine and then claimed it as thier own hard work, it would be different, but that's not what's happening here.

Also to add to the fact Ian asked for the settings, did you not learn how to take shots when you started taking photos?

I learnt how to build my cars from my dad, and others in the field. I learnt how to drive from a driving instructor, and learnt how to peddle a car hard from my old man as well (he used to compete in off road racing for 20 years. Again, he was taught how to drive in that sort of race when he started out too. I could go on and on, and this goes for everyone here, the trick is putting what your told into practise, and being good at improving on it.

Ian may have used your settings, and asked you for the shot, but you know as well as I do, everything requires fine tuning. What works on one camera doesnt work on another. You could go to the same spot tonight and use the exact settings you told ian and not pull it off. Then theres the different camera brands and lens that change everything again.

Again, I understand why you might be pissed, but I personally think you shouldnt be so upset by what he's done, and I would take it as flattery, that someone loves what you have done so much that they want to learn and do the same. I think Ian needed to reword what he says. That photo is not 'your' photo, it has his own personalisation to it, but I think he simply could have given credit where credit is due.
I just don't know if people like me. I know when they don't like me 'cause they'll say things like, 'Yeah, that's him, officer.'

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Post by blv » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 9:57 am

iano wrote:my sincere thanks to you for showing it to me as before your shot I never knew about it.
And he did.
I just don't know if people like me. I know when they don't like me 'cause they'll say things like, 'Yeah, that's him, officer.'

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Post by Jon 51 » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 11:20 am

feck me, is this a giant waste of time or should I finish reading this page?
maybe someone can summarise it for me?
so far I'm upto
-cam took a shot
-iano asked for where and how details
-cam provided details
-iano re-shot it
-iano posted shot on internet
-que hostilities.

don't worry I will probably read the rest of this a bit later
but from what i've seen so far you two:
need to go buy some fixed gear bikes and start listening to dog whistles

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Post by daBOODA » Wed 23 Mar, 2011 11:24 am

Can we close this thread now? I think everyone's said what they need to say and there are no resolutions possible.
"The argument doesn't work with me. Go back to your cracker jack lifestyle and I'll meet you at the evolutionary bell curve ... I'll be sitting there a while, it's kind of a tortoise and the hare story." - Bill Hicks

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